The view of Beijing and Berlin. Photos on this page: VCG

Editor's Note:

For Europe and Germany, China should be first seen as an important partner, former Federal Minister of the Interior of Germany Otto Georg Schily (Schily) told Global Times (GT) reporter Ma Ruiqian in an exclusive interview. He called on European politicians to strive for global partnership instead of building obstacles to global cooperation. Regarding China's role in the Russia-Ukraine conflict, Schily said China has talked wisely to both Russia and Ukraine to find a peaceful solution. He believes China could play an important role in future peace talks, but what can be achieved in the end will depend on Washington. The following is the full transcript of the interview.、

GT: Some voices from Europe believe that China should play a role in ending the Russia-Ukraine conflict and that China is the only country capable of stopping Russia. Are these voices fair? What role do you think Europe should expect China to play?

Schily: The Ukraine war is a disaster for both sides and should be ended as early as possible. China has talked wisely to Ukraine and to Russia to find a peaceful solution. China could play an important role in future peace talks. But at the end of the day, what can be achieved will depend on the US government because Kiev listens first to Washington.

China's Propositions on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis are a constructive contribution to finding a peaceful solution because they are founded on the following four key principles. First, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries should be upheld. Second, the purposes and principles of the UN Charter should be observed. Third, the legitimate security concerns of all parties should be taken seriously. Fourth, all efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis should be supported.

I totally agree on China's following observations: First, wars produce no winner; second, there is no simple solution to a complex issue; and third, confrontation between major countries must be avoided.

GT: Not long ago, the EU's new foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas claimed that China should face "a higher cost" for supporting Russia and continued to accuse China of supporting "Russia's war." How do you view this accusation?

Schily: The statement of Ms Kallas only proves that she is obviously the wrong choice for the position of High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. If Ms Kallas believes that every country that has political and economic relations with Russia should face a "higher cost," she has to extend her proposal to many other countries, for example, India, South Africa, Brazil, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia, and even member states of the European Union.

GT: Some European countries, including Germany, are concerned about Donald Trump's return, especially regarding transatlantic relations and NATO unity. What are your predictions for the Trump administration, and do you think it will quickly end the Russia-Ukraine conflict after taking office?

Schily: As we know, Trump is mainly a businessman. Hopefully, his future policy will be guided by the realization that political and economic questions should be answered by win-win models, not by enforcement of one-sided interests.

It would be most welcome if the Trump administration finds a way to resolve the Russia-Ukraine conflict, but for the time being, nobody knows. It would be a great success if the Trump administration could facilitate to reach a cease-fire.

GT: There has been much discussion in media across the world about the Global South, believing that the world is moving toward multipolarity and the international order will no longer be dominated by the West. How should the West perceive this change?

Schily: The increasing political and economic strength of the Global South is a fact no one can deny. Some people in the West see this as a threat. But the political and economic improvements of the Global South should be regarded as a promising opportunity for cooperation and development for all of us, including Western countries. 

GT: As the world order changes, how should Germany and Europe view China? Would you agree with framing China as a "systemic rival"?

Schily: The economic cooperation between China and Europe and, particularly, that between China and Germany in the past has brought remarkable mutual benefits. Investments of European companies in China and Chinese companies in Europe have enhanced economic growth in China and Europe. China is the EU's second-largest trading partner for goods after the US. Bilateral trade reached 739 billion euros in 2023. We are well advised to continue and expand this successful cooperation in the future and not to obstruct the economic relations between China and Europe by bumping up customs or implementing bureaucratic obstacles. 

From my conversation with the Chancellery, I know for sure that Chancellor Olaf Scholz has always been engaged in intensifying the economic cooperation and the political dialogue with China. 

The wording "systemic rival" is not my language. From my point of view, I see China first as an important partner, but to some extent also as a competitor. But fair competition is healthy in a globally linked economy. Beyond economy and politics, we should be very grateful that there are so many friendly relations between Chinese and Europeans and, particularly, between Chinese and Germans. 

GT: Austrian writer Stefan Zweig is quite popular in China, and so is his book The World of Yesterday. In your opinion, what will the world of tomorrow be like? Not everyone understands the true meaning of the term "watershed era" (or "Zeitenwende") addressed by Scholz. What is your view on this?

Schily: I am very glad to hear that Stefan Zweig is popular in China. His book The World of Yesterday describes very impressively the tragic and sad history of Europe in the last century, the two brutal world wars and the crimes of national socialism and fascism in all their awfulness. On the last pages of his book, you can read the following melancholic commentary on the beginning of World War II: "Once again a time was over, again a new time began." This is the meaning of the term "Zeitenwende," because the Ukrainian war has fundamentally changed the political situation in Europe with very negative repercussions for the whole world.

Whether we like it or not, we already live in a globalized world and we have to address the huge problems we are confronted with by global cooperation. 

GT: Facing unprecedented changes in the world, China has proposed several initiatives, hoping to build a global community with a shared future to address mutual challenges. Do you agree with this? In your opinion, what kind of politician does Europe need?

Schily: The Global Development Initiative, Global Security Initiative and Global Civilization Initiative proposed by China should be seriously discussed in the international institutions, as well as in bilateral relations. There is a very simple lesson to be learned: Global questions need global answers, and global answers can only be given by global partnership.

Accordingly, European politicians should strive for global partnership instead of building obstacles to global cooperation. They should be aware of the fact that we will inevitably live in a multipolar world. In this multipolar world, we need to have a better and deeper understanding of different cultures and historical backgrounds. Political strategies can only be successful if they are able to combine their own interests with the interests of the other and, furthermore, to combine their own capabilities with the capabilities of the other.